Joanne Lockwood, D&I and Trans Awareness Consultant, on Improving Belonging

Joanne Lockwood D&I and Trans awareness

Value through Vulnerability (boosted by HumansFirst) Host Garry Turner, Sponsored by Aequip

VtV Coalition

Garry Turner 

Welcome to the Value through Vulnerability podcast boosted by HumansFirst and sponsored by Aequip. I’m your host Garry Turner. And we come together on this podcast as we jointly believe in puting the human back into humanity through championing inclusion, and improving voice for all. Designing work to support everybody thriving.

Aequip is a mobile first organizational listening tool that gives voice and visibility to every single employee, wherever they are deskless, office-based, or fully remote. This matters as it allows you to access more of the human potential that you’re already paying salaries for. It also helps surface process improvements and innovation from those that have the best information and also helps build fully inclusive cultures that embrace, celebrate and leverage the difference that race, disability, gender and diversity of thought brings. All of the above for both improved performance and minimize the cost of doing business.

I’m also really excited to be on this journey with Mike Vacanti, my co host, who is founder of the HumansFirst club movement. You can find all of the open and inclusive hangouts, one of which takes every Monday at 12pm. UK, or 1pm Central European Time. You can find details for the Thursday and Friday call as well as the Monday call at HumanFirst.club online. You can also find contact details for the Aequip team at aequip.co.uk. We really hope that you’ll subscribe to this podcast so that we can send you a weekly installment as soon as it comes out. And as always, we welcome your challenges, your additions to the conversation and anything else that may resonate with you. Please feel free to share on your favorite channel. And indeed we look forward to hearing from you. We really hope you enjoy this conversation.

Joanne, tell us a bit about yourself?

Joanne Lockwood

Without giving you too much in depth who I am, I started my career as an IT consultant, back in the late 80s back when being young and gifted in terms of technology was a real advantage. I was probably the only PCs, as I have taught computer networking. And eventually I went on to form my own business having worked for Coots bank global organizations. Having had some great fun I started my own business in the late 90s supporting small businesses in the UK in the South of England. But after I guess the best part of 20 odd years is sort of fun in my business. I kind of got tired of it, going different in my life, and I decided about three years ago that I needed to make a change.

So I made not only a change in a career. I also took the opportunity to gender transition at the same point. So some people say that is crazy. 52 years old, junking your entire life career and startup new. I also junked my entire life, gender as well. So, couple that with the challenges of our family and it’s kind of a bit of a disruption in early 2017. And by the time I came out of that with a passion, and my passion was inclusion, around belonging around trying to make a better place, or mainly at the time people like myself, trans people to thrive.

‘My passion was inclusion, around belonging around trying to make a better place, or mainly at the time people like myself, trans people to thrive.’

Joanne Lockwood

Knowing full well that ever discrimination, the level of humiliation, marginalisation that trans people face, still do face on a daily basis. I wanted to try and inject some positivity into the world around that. And I think as that role expanded, as I got to know the world more around the HR space, D&I space, I realised that it’s not just about me. It’s not just about people like me, there’s people like everybody, everybody has a need to feel greater belonging, create an environment where people thrive around inclusion, culture, leadership. So that’s why probably the last 18 months I’ve expanded my thinking to try and be more inclusive for all people. 

So now I speak on stages between conferences. I say the EU, Europe, UK,  and elsewhere. I was in Melbourne last year, San Francisco, Kiev, Tallinn, Amsterdam, Lisbon, so a whole lot of countries around the world running, doing keynotes, running workshops, on panels and being interviewed. So lots of this kind of stuff really, and trying to spread the positivity about humanity. So which is again, perfectly aligned with this chat today. 

Garry Turner 

I love that so much, thank you as well for the, you know, as someone that is from the, to use the traditional language, dominant group right now. I love the fact how you took it from that, yes, absolutely passionate about making sure that you know trans inclusion doesn’t become a thing. In the end, we’re just humans, and how you’re really, you know, you’ve elevated your thinking around that and it is, we are all human how do we, I think right now let’s bring Michael in, what I’m finding fascinating, Jo, is the belief structures we’ve all held on to or believed for generations are suddenly all up for grabs.

Now this COVID thing, if nothing else is like, do we need to hold on to that belief that trans is different to Garry or a Mike or the someone that’s Black is different than someone that comes from Nicaragua. And I just think we’ve got an opportunity I feel to really rebuild from the ground up, what we think we need to believe going forward post crisis but then if that resonates with you, if you challenge that.

We’ve got an opportunity to really rebuild from the ground up, what we think we need to believe going forward post crisis? Does that resonate with you?

Joanne Lockwood 

Yeah, I think we crafted a world where there’s a lot of current, but we don’t do it that way we can’t do it that way or that’s a bit tricky. That won’t work, and now suddenly everything, couldn’t do we can. So I think the new level of work can’t do is change completely so we now start with the reframing everything too, we have to, we can, we’ve got to adapt. Whatever is gonna happen we’re not going back. This could be a lot of pressure by some people to want to push things back into the comfort zone, pushing back to the way they were. But I think the people, the population, the collective of the staff,  the culture now knows that things are possible.

So employers won’t be able to just tell us who won’t be different for work. We are different. We’re now living in a world where employers don’t own you nine to five. They are in chunks of you, and you fit in your work around your life, your family, what you can do. Having a disability. You’re now working in your own space. You’ve already adapted your own workstation, your own environment, your own home to work for you. So the reason why just what’s already been done without leveling out.

And maybe what we’re looking down is the challenge we’re having is people maybe more extroverted. The more people that like to hang around with people they’re struggling more, whereas those who have almost the most privileged people in the office. The bouncy extroverts, chatty people we’ve got the most attention. The people go quiet or want to work, work quite a bit on stuff. They were kind of like all that kind of boring. They’re never going to go anywhere. 

‘people are people and, no matter who they are, deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.’

Joanne Lockwood

But now we’re looking at the dynamics change, who is more valuable, someone with a good desk, great board pad that is actually a valuable resource, now we’re valuing people that found what they’ve got in their home. And the mental health challenges. If you’re working alone, you live on your own. That is now not a great place to be some time. And also if you’ve got a big family, the challenges of multiple generations, multiple conflicts around gender roles within the home and financial pressures have all changed.

We’ve got what I would call once privileged business owners with staff and bottom line profit, dividend payments, big houses, schools, cars are cut off. And now, wonder how they’re gonna go for their mortgage. The business is meant to be crumbling and whole people are coming to retirement have invested in a retirement lifestyle business, and now sitting back disappear. To call these people now recently de-privileged, that’s a word, realizing what it’s like not to have certainty, to not have everything been mapped out, which is where often those with less privilege, have been all their lives. 

Joanne-Lockwood-D&I and Trans Awareness Consultant

Joanne’s mantra is Smile, Engage and Educate.

So when I start to have a greater appreciation for some of the challenges people might have, because now we’re in it together apparently what we’ve learned together but we sometimes have a bigger boat but yeah, I think we need to be going back to what the question is. I think it is enabling, our change in the workplace, a lot of change in the way people get treated. But I think we need to recognize that not everyone’s having the same experience. And just because it’s easier, or someone making the decision to just because it’s easier, or someone to work from home. That’s the stereotype and generalize and say that works for everybody. I think we can be very personal centric and address the mental health needs, financial needs, and the capabilities they have working in that environment.

‘I think that if we allow people to step into who they really are, they will bring so much more magic into every interaction, into the lives of others.’

Mike Vacanti

Mike Vacanti  

I think that we conclude, and just say that’s the shortest podcast recording ever because you have clarified so many critical points. And in, in one answer one phrase Jo I mean seriously what you just captured there is really brilliant because it speaks to, you know, the experience that everybody is having uniquely. And I love the way that you’re able to frame that and bring everybody in, right, create room for all the listeners to find themselves in their situation. And then draw a greater appreciation for the other person’s challenge and struggle and you know when you were talking about, you said, a bit of a disruption to 2017, just completely changing my career so everything I’m doing.

And then, you know, gender transitioning so everything that I, you know, was known for. Not that you are but were known for. So, yeah, a bit of a change. And then, how you very quickly put that into the context of, I can do more with this, I can draw that to a greater purpose and help everyone, because we’re all going through some point of doubt or transition. And then at the very end of that extremely eloquent and, you know, very deep exploration of important topics, you also said that the curiosity is there, and the inclusion of everybody is sacrificing at some level right now. 

The uncertainty is actually the great discomfort. It’s not the change that we have to make. But it’s the uncertainty of the outcome that I think you just very eloquently stated the importance of that. There is one other thing that struck me and I’m talking too much, Garry, also but it was the, you know, Jo as you were sharing it was the, all rise, kind of thing was coming to me and you know I love the phrase, allow. I think that if we allow people to step into who they really are, they will bring so much more magic into every interaction, into the lives of others. As you’re allowed to express and share and give real permission to so many to step into their unique self find their unique path.

Joanne Lockwood

We get the best of them. Yeah, and I think some of the challenge that leaders have right now is because that we always recognize that not every leader has been trained or has the tools in their toolkit to be a great leader. And now we’re asking these people who probably haven’t had full support to be great leaders in this new way of looking. We’ve now got a whole workforce, looking up wanting inspiration, wanting direction. At the same time that therefore they’re going through the same challenges in their life and they’re looking up to their lead, saying, help me. And we pass this up the tree. And often, the further out you get the more panicking or the more anxiety is about income, bottom line to the business, lack of sales or did all that kind of keep the show on the road, type wirings. 

‘now we’re asking these people who probably haven’t had full support to be great leaders in this new way of looking.’

Joanne Lockwood

So there’s a real disconnect with people and maybe the middle management, leadership, aren’t getting that support from the top, they’re just trying to have to figure it out. And they’re trying to motivate the staff, without necessarily having the tools so that we need to give some big leadership here, and recognize that yes I’m vulnerable to, I don’t have all the answers. I’m doing my best. Can we help and injecting two times a day is even company hours, they’re just not used to delivering this kind of emotional support to people. How are you doing, supposed to be a 30 second answer. I’m doing great, had a great weekend. How are you, now it’s a half hour conversation.

And the people aren’t used to having that much knowledge about someone’s struggles, because we’ve always tried to detach ourselves from that’s the reality is, how do you do, actually do really badly. Okay. What do I do now. I’m not used to the answer. I’m not used to someone saying actually, there’s a problem. I think that’s one of the things that they just say now you have a deeper connection with their teams, and their people, and know them as individuals, rather than know that was just Person A and Person B.

Garry Turner

Mike, I understand why you reflected as you did, because it was beautiful to see like digesting internalize what Jo said, I’ve got a similar experience like your succinctness Jo, your clarity of the world you want to be the change in. It’s so amazing to observe the thing that came up here, you were just speaking was, one, yes the senior leaders in the spirit of this podcast need to be more vulnerable to say, I’m struggling or I need help, but they’re not used to doing that, so that’s one part, like top down. And then you’ve got this weird paradox where actually, if they could develop that emotional vulnerability, the people below them want to help them. So you’ve got this weird gulf in the middle with both like I’d rather pivot it to the small horizontal than vertical. So even a flatter structure. You’ve got a situation where there’s this weird void in the middle where these people want to help, but these people are too invulnerable not to ask. Do you see that in the work that you’re doing.

You’ve got a situation with this weird void in the middle where people want to help, but are too invulnerable not to ask. Do you see that in your work?

Joanne Lockwood

I think sure that some people naturally have more empathy that they’re more led by their heart, by their emotions and these people here are often able to heal people who don’t have that same level of empathy, I think what leaders need to do is not using gender stereotypes and tend to bias it. It’s just recognized that some people generally have more maternal or paternal type instinct, or nurturing type traits that maybe didn’t come out in their role then and there, and they can be leveraged. These people can actually be a catalyst within the team. Recognize that someone’s got these traits, amplify them, give them a bigger role and say look, as when this great team member here can, can lead some of these discussions, can do this and do the check ins for me actually. Actually, I could use them as a sounding board to check on posters. Right my take my cadences, right? I get the mood of the people, rather than saying I know them, actually speak to the people. We often think we have to speak for people. And what we actually part of this has actually been some person centric we don’t listen, which will allow this feeling. 

‘Who are the people in society who are adding value?’

Joanne Lockwood

In order to help everyone sort of feel safe and feel respected. And I hear so many stories about people being furloughed, who have not had any conversation with their company. The company’s hiding behind the fact well we’re not allowed to talk to you because the rules are there. That was you must not work if I talk to you in a work context you’re working and that’s not about the people that was hiding behind these rules. Yet we retrieve social contracts without creating a new social construct to justify our behavior. So I think it’s important that we look at all of our people in the office who are still working at their desk, people furloughed, and different groups of people. And we’ve got people like the NHS that are just flat out. We have minimum wage people who have no respect but they weren’t amplified in the same way. Now what if these are the people keeping the country running.

Have you read the book Utopia for Realists by Rutger Bregman? One thing he describes is what’s called bullshit jobs. These are people who don’t actually produce anything. So, in this context, there’s a whole lot of people who are doing what we call equal bullshit jobs, they’re adding no value to the country. But the people actually produce, the people actually keep things moving, other people now value in society. We always valued the accountants, the traders, the people that made this stuff go around, not the people who actually see that the actual value add the product, creating the product. I think that’s what we’re seeing now with this situation, we’re now seeing a flip. Who are the people in society who are adding value?

Garry Turner

So many big topics, Mike, I have to bring you in on this because I think I’ve had a chance because things are major that come up. These are big systemic conversations I like to go in this direction sometimes is, you know things like basic income.

Mike Vacanti 

Things like actually UBI.

Garry Turner

Gotta be is, as you say, why not, what a great question. I love that. That’s what we should all asking, I invite all of you who are listening.

What in your life could you be saying why not to more often right now?

Joanne Lockwood

When I read this book, it transpired when I found out that Richard Nixon, one of his big bills was UBI. And it didn’t get through the Senate, but it was that close it was it was basically that close to passing and America could have had a UBI which he would have been celebrated as in his generation. Sweden have been implementing and trying in a certain way. And you could argue, we’ve got a level of UBI now with the furlough scheme, with the social support that was put in.

‘making sure people have this baseline of income, then you can be entrepreneurial, then you can think about your future, then you can plan. But when what you’re worried about is now, how can you think about tomorrow?’

Joanne Lockwood

So let’s expand that and it’s not about nothing. When he said, poor people, doesn’t mean that if you’re poor, it doesn’t mean to say you don’t have to look after money, you just don’t have any money to look after, rich people waste more money per second than poor people ever have. So it’s actually rich people who don’t know how to manage their money, not poor people. If you give some without money, the first thing they do is, create an environment where they can succeed, and often they don’t use all the money you give them. You give them a sufficient level. I asked one thing about UBI is making sure people have this baseline of income, then you can be entrepreneurial, then you can think about your future, then you can plan. But when what you’re worried about is now, how can you think about tomorrow?

Mike Vacanti

What I love about the discussions when we go deep into exploring the margins. I think that’s often missed because wherever we are operating in our lives, there’s always something beyond us from a wealth standpoint or beyond us from a needs and poor standpoint. And so, whatever orbit we kind of seemed to exist in, that is the one that we somehow see as normal. And we only project on what it would be like to have the bigger yacht, or what it would be like to not even have shelter or know where the meals come from, and the human element is we all experience uncertainty and insecurity. And I think that trip through normal and normalization, and equalization is maybe the largest myth that we actually portray. So, that equity. I think it is a discussion, certainly, but equally would be measuring the same. And as soon as we try to measure against the same standard. Everybody’s excluded. Which is why I just deplore and despise the word normal itself. And when people say new normal. I cringe. Because the old normal wasn’t very good and I question if a normal even exists. And like the typical…

Joanne Lockwood 

more typical less typical is kind of an…

Mike Vacanti

inclusion is as soon as we say normal, I don’t know if there’s any more exclusive word than normal, because it basically says anything not me.

Joanne Lockwood 

Yeah, I think also it’s a privilege to say normal as a privilege. If you don’t have that privilege at all, then you’ve no idea. Out of the scope of your own sphere of what you’re doing you don’t have choice and freedom. And one thing I mentioned about my sleep is of the day and there’s a news article. I think was on TV last half of that before saying that one good thing that’s coming out of this is there are less rough sleepers on the street, because they’re now all in hotels, but has this person with privilege who made that statement actually asked the rough sleepers, would they rather be on the street with their family, with their friends, with their environment they love, or would they rather be stuck in isolation in a hotel room? So actually, we went out with a desire for a rough sleeper to fit our normal. They shouldn’t live on the street, but we haven’t actually asked the rough sleeper if that’s their normal. We should be saying to the rough sleeper, actually, what would you rather have, I would probably say well, I like to live on the street, what I’d rather have is better access to food, and some warm shelter when I need it, or some new clothes occasionally, I’m quite happy living on the street with my family. So we’ve decided because normal to us is having a house having an address that’s how they must want to be. So, this is again this is privilege  kicking in deciding what normal should be for somebody else, without asking them, and that’s the challenge I think we’ve got to do is ask people again, being very customer centric about.

Mike Vacanti

You know, it’s interesting, I love that so much because as I often say I even kind of wrote in my book is,  we get very confused about employee engagement and employee experience and one of the things I say is, if we actually ask the people what experience they’re having, instead of measuring them against the one we’re telling them to have things would change dramatically. I’ve just heard you express that so much better than I ever have.

Thank you for that.

Joanne Lockwood

I just watched it. I crowdsource my data from news media, written articles on Medium or wherever, wherever channel I can get a hold of. And I try to step back and put this inclusion lens on it and, actually, let me just do a 360 or a 180 on that. What’s that person thinking, based on what I perceive to get this perception,  re-orientated perceptions. We get locked into our own view of the world, and our own privilege and bias are added to the experience, you must want what I want, and that’s sometimes how the media feeds it to us, and creates this polarized clickbait mentality that they propagate.

Mike Vacanti 

As you’re out doing this work, Jo, and you’re in front of people often and having these dialogues and as Garry said, you speak with such clarity and elegantly to it. What is the reaction from is, is there more openness, are you experiencing people with more curiosity, or is or is that rigid container still a barrier to breaking through?

Is there more openness, are you experiencing people with more curiosity?

Joanne Lockwood

I’d say, the majority of conversations and interactions I have are very open, kind of, exploratory, deep I mean like go now we’ll probably talk all day like this, and the concept of tumbling tumbling tumbling bounces are like a pinball machine with the ideas sparking off each other. And sometimes I come across people who really want to shut it down and argue against intersectionality, argue against things, and I kind of learned to kind of go, okay, fine. I can’t engage in this, I want to engage with people open minded willing to go, I don’t know how to talk about it, let’s explore. I’ll find someone who I find almost wants to question me, I don’t have answers. I’ve got questions so don’t come to me with an answer.

So, if one of us would just say what do you think I say well I think this, but I’m not right. I just have an opinion. And then we can get into this opinion discussion. And we can start trying to figure out why your opinions are different than my opinions. Brilliant intelligent rhetoric brought into discussion, rather than someone telling me you’re trying to persuade me that they’re right. You have to be right. You just have to be able to express yourself and share that belief.

Garry Turner

Though, honestly, I really do want another three hours with you and Mike. I think we’ve just got slightly scratching the surface here seriously because I’ll say offline, I watched an incredible documentary, do you know about David Icke, the conspiracy theorist  who was a Coventry City goalkeeper, then football and then born again Christian, and tin helmet-wearing conspiracy theorists.

Do you know it’s fascinating so he was on a three hour conversation with the London real guy Brian Rose yesterday, and it’s not my normal sort of thing when I’m going through this rubbish. I’ve not had my lens, but you look at this guy is actually bat, bat nuts crazy, but then you can actually, you know, you just described, let’s actually lean in with an open mind and heart and just see where they go. It took them three hours 10 minutes to get to the nub of their conversation’s conspiracy theory, COVID’s not real, all sorts of a really amazing exploration. What he said at three hours 10 minutes over a three and a half hour conversation, it’s all, if we make decisions from unconditional love, all of this goes away. Like, so the summary, the summary message right at the end of this crazy exploration, whatever you get out of it was, if we can come from a place of connection, compassion, and love, everything is possible. Like, it was this moment of like clarity for me where I believe that, I genuinely do. But when you listen to three hours of quite challenging random stuff I’m not used to hearing, and then it’d be finished with that I’m still sitting in that Jo, which is why I wanted to share it now it’s really fascinating. 

Joanne Lockwood

Yeah, that plays into something I talk about, do you remember at school when you were doing maths lessons and you were doing your calculations and your sums. The rule was show your workings out. Because if you just show your answer, and it’s wrong, or it’s not what the teachers thought it should be, you’ve got no evidence, Hey got that. So I’m translating every time Just tell me what you think. Tell me how you got to the point why you think, because if I can see your workings out and I may actually just my, my sum or my calculation based on some of your observations, or I might go, actually, well, we have seen the same information, we’ve seen the same evidence, with the same planet has been the same language, but we have a different out.

We have a different understanding of this problem. And now I can see how you got there it how I got there, and it may well be that we’ve got some fundamental difference of opinion we’re never going to resolve, but at least we could see each other’s workings out and go, well, okay, yeah, but I don’t get that I get that, but at least we’ve got s that we can come to a different answer with the same result. And that’s allowed.

Tell us a bit about True Inclusion, this event of yours in a couple of weeks.

Joanne Lockwood

TRU, for those of you who haven’t heard of it. It’s an unconference founded by a friend of mine called Bill Boorman about 10 years ago, and it started off, he was at a conference somewhere in the world. And he found more people sitting under a tree talking to him having conversations that were actually in the, in the conference itself. So he decided, there’s a value to having these breakout conversation type sessions so TRU was founded. It’s the acronym is TRU, the recruitment unconference that’s where TRU comes from. As I said to Bill a couple years ago that could be really good rather than having inclusion, D&I is a bolt on, a part of who I want to turn its head, have inclusion at the heart, and everything else bought into that because when we talk to businesses about D&I should be be like the core of the business, should be embedded everyday with product design, marketing, customer service, and inclusion to have it under talent acquisition under the inclusion lens, under recruitment to innovate even to the times to flip it into the middle. So that’s why I came up with it. So I ran the first one last year in London, about 50 people, which I was really happy with at the time because it was just enough for my very first event that I’d run on my own. So it’s quite a lot of people, good feedback, but my plan is to run it again this year, about now. And I guess I had a choice either keep waiting, never, never quite happened it never quite happened. 

So I decided let’s do online. So I went, Okay, so I shared it with some people, they said we want that, we want that, we want to do that. So then I realized, this could be global. So I call it the global online Inclusion Conference, because I’ve got people from all over, and this week I’m currently back to back with zoom calls and people want to host tracks, they want to get involved. I’ve got some sponsors, HR tech startups, all across Europe, want to talk to me, to sponsor me. I spent some time this morning, they’ve offered me a massive sponsorship, not massive, 10s of thousands, but it’s in the context of the event as a major sponsor. I’ve already posted, I’ve got 35-40 people booked in already. All paying. I think I mentioned to you before we started the show, I set the minimum price at a pound. With a suggested donation of 10 pounds. Because what I wanted people to do actually consciously book into the event, bothered to bump into a click yes, and then not show up. So by getting them to at least go to paypal, donate a pound, at least they’ve gone and bought into it. It’s gonna be on the 19th of May, in two weeks time as we record. 10 to 2:30 UK time.

I just have five breakout rooms with around 20 people per breakout room so 100 people as it was my target. My thought I’ve got at the moment is this could go bigger, it could be 250, maybe, who knows. So that’s my challenge is how do I scale it past 100, whether I can, when I look here at 150 or whatever. But yeah, it’s gonna go ahead, I’ve got traffic coming in. And I’ve got people pushing it so yeah, pretty positive, so that’s true inclusion, it’s focused on inclusion and the broad spectrum. So it’s not about diversity. It’s about how we make people feel, how we how people thrive, how we engage with them into leadership into well being, motivation, communication, whatever it may be.

Mike Vacanti

You know, do what you’ve shared with us in this conversation. I think exemplifies so well what people can expect by jumping into TRU. And the level, and the depth and the openness of those conversations, just really great and congratulations on doing that together just sending huge well wishes because it’s important work.

Joanne Lockwood

Thank you. Appreciate that. 

Garry Turner

Yeah, I’ve signed up, I’ve got a business meeting I’ve currently undergoing, they might listen to this. But I have signed up from a support point of view. You’ll be amazed.

Joanne Lockwood

I’ve deliberately billed as a dip in dip out, pick and choose. So, I’m not expecting anyone to sit down at 930 in the morning until 230 in the afternoon. If you see a couple of tracks on one side, you have to go and work around your family schedules, and about the work schedule and do it is not is virtually online, you dip in and consume as you want to do the rule only if I’m not going to record it. So if you’re not there, you’re not there. There’s no, sort of, there’s no catch up, there’s Chatham House rule, you can’t go and we can’t hear someone’s thoughts. 

Garry Turner 

Brilliant, can I ask you a question, Jo. In terms of what you’ve. What have you learned about yourself over the last several weeks as we’ve gone through this, this really unique time of our lives. I wonder if you’ve learned anything about yourself in terms of maybe how you’ve grown or how you’ve adapted what’s, how’s it been for you?

What have you learned about yourself over the last several weeks as we’ve gone through this, this really unique time of our lives?

Joanne Lockwood

When you said a term called bounce back ability I think I’ve, I’ve discovered that I do have this resilience and this bounce back ability. I know I’ve learned over the last three years that I am allowed to be vulnerable. I’m allowed not to be sure. I also know I procrastinate a lot, but I I don’t see procrastination as a failure or a weakness. I see it as an opportunity for me to try new things. I know that I will always deliver it in time and be good enough. So, it’s allowed me to do that. I’ve learned I’ve got a huge, huge amount of friends out there. A great network of people who not only I can lean on. But I now know they can lean on me, and I’m more than willing to share to embrace and go the extra mile for people in the same way they want to be so I felt really empowered around the network I’ve built. And what I’ve been allowed to be part of. I’ve learned that my IT skills are coming in useful.

And that I often said I look forward to the day when I support myself not anybody else. And having the ability to. I’ll still into photography and filmmaking, I am a very amateur filmmaking mechanical  back in the 90s and things. And I’ve always been a photographer. So I appreciate light I appreciate frankly being. I get sound bites, and I’ve got a very strong, what I want myself to look like. I got a high standard of how I want to deliver as well so I think bringing all that together, I feel quite privileged that I have the ability to think talk speak on camera.

I took part in a documentary Channel 4 and I mentioned that to you before. I did about a three year Documentary on Channel 4. So I was used to being interviewed on camera and document jobs, lots of film sets, taking direction, walking in at restaurants five times, make sure you pick the hand over the right hand. The same for wearing the same clothes. I’ve got very used to that, being directed and managed and being on camera. So now being on camera and speaking on stage, being interviewed. It’s kind of like whatever itself says, Don’t think the questions that  have had just asked me, they just show me them if you like that just asked me, the roles. But yeah, what about myself, kind of bam, I’m okay I’m good enough or whatever.

Garry Turner 

So powerful. Now we’re kind of on top of time, Mike, what’s on your mind before I come back to Jo to ask her for an invitation for our guests.

Mike Vacanti

I just want to say thank you and, and I look forward to more conversations. The empowerment. And I know that word is challenged sometimes, but truly allowing people to step into what they envision for themselves. I just, not only do you embody that, but you know you help us discover that roadmap for ourselves in embracing and taking the next best action. So, thank you for being there for support and putting you know putting the information out, but also just exemplifying  for each of us. It’s that next step it’s what we do next and embrace uncertainty. And I think that was just a gift you shared today. Thank you.

Joanne Lockwood

Thank you. That’s so two benefits come back to me, one thing I always said, when I embarked on this a couple of years ago was I went, I didn’t know what I was doing. I had no Sat Nav no Map. I was wandering around these paths, and I was literally walking to a forest, not knowing where I was going to pop out. And at first, that sounds counterintuitive to every business book you get in the world. You must have a game plan to action, coaches must look at me and think what a nightmare because, where’s the business plan, where’s the direction, where’s she going with us, my MVP is kinda like, I’m here. Let’s figure it out here so I don’t want to be too defined, which allows me, which is why I procrastinate, a lot it’s not that I’m procrastinating, I’m just exploring loads of different thought processes and trying to try to lock onto something that seems interesting, and I don’t have this, this urgency to acquire things, but I don’t want to be the biggest, most profitable. 

I just want to be sustainably okay. And that’s kind of my mission: just be okay, be sustainable, just keep being able to do what I do, if that becomes more and more sustainable and sustainability goes up, great, but if it stays here as well I think in this in this COVID Cloud. I don’t feel like I’ve lost anything. I’ve just gained a whole load of new toys and then do things I can explore and challenge my mind. That’s kind of how I’ve checked it out again. I do understand as privileged until people don’t have the luxury of being able to take a step back, they’ve got other pressures but yeah I’m here.

Garry Turner

I’ve learned about myself over the last 12 months Jo is what you’re doing you acknowledge the privilege, no less barriers and maybe others have, you are using it for good to lift others up, and I think that’s what I take away from this conversation is that you’ve given so much insight and I’d love to invite you to do just before we head off now is, you’ve given so much, you really have, but you’re going to leave our listeners with one key reflection, or maybe an invitation, what would that be to them today as they finish this conversation. What do you want to think about as they go on with the rest of their day.

What do you want our listeners to think about as they go on with the rest of their day?

Joanne Lockwood

That’s a bit corny but you are good enough, you can step backwards and choose a new way forward. You don’t have you’re not predestined from the current path so whatever you’ve been working for you. Whatever is not right. You have the power to change yourself. You just have to decide that’s what you want to do. You don’t have to say, we talked about the normal was the new normal whatever that means you don’t have to do what you’ve always done this opportunity to make a life change. You can, you can. 

Garry Turner 

Good stuff. Jo, how can people find you. What’s the best way to get in contact?

Joanne Lockwood

On LinkedIn. And if you Google my name Joanne Lockwood. If you go to my website you’ll find all my social media contacts on there, and my bio and all that what I do.

Garry Turner

Thank you. 

Please Note: The content above is a semi-automated transcription of the podcast episode. We recommend listening to the podcast, in case any of the content above is unclear.

Garry Turner

With over 20 years of international sales, business development and relationship-building experience combined with a deep understanding of people, team and culture dynamics, Garry Turner serves individuals, teams and leaders as a strategic advisor and interpersonal catalyst.

Mike Vacanti

Mike’s mission is simply to help as many people as he can discover their potential, embrace a growth mindset and achieve at inspired levels individually, as a brilliant team and for the betterment of their company and community.

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