Frances X. Frei on trust, empowered leadership, and authenticity

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Value through Vulnerability (boosted by HumansFirst) Host Garry Turner, Sponsored by Aequip

VtV Coalition

Frances X. Frei

Garry Turner  0:00  

Welcome to Value through Vulnerability. This is a podcast dedicated to putting the human back into humanity. We are grateful to be boosted by HumansFirst and have HumansFirst founder Mike Vacanti with us today. But we are both super, super excited to have a wonderful human being with us in Frances Frei, who is a professor at Harvard Business School, and author of a brilliant new book that’s just come out called Unleashed. Welcome to the podcast from Frances, how are you?

Frances Frei  0:25  

Well, I’m doing really well thank you both for the invitation.

Garry Turner  0:28  

You’re most welcome. We look before we get going down the rabbit hole of your book, which I’m really excited about. I’d love to just learn a bit more about you, you know, where are you? Where are you based in the world? And what was your journey to writing this book. If there’s like a short version of the process.

FF P e1599755263142

Frances Frei  0:43  

I’ll give you the short version. And so I’m in Cambridge, Massachusetts walking distance from Tech from campus. So the journey from the book came that I had quite a I studied math, and then I studied industrial engineering and then in the business school operations and Information Management. So I was just getting increasingly applied. But everything I did, you could optimise, you could get the right answer. until I started noticing when I got to HBS. And I joined the Technology and Operations Management Unit. And I was still like, applied I could still every one of my academic papers, and there was a right answer that was good. It was good. It was good. 

‘And then I ran into a wall of the pesky humans. I was like, holy cow. I can’t optimise anymore because of the pesky humans. And then I got really intrigued by the humans.’

France X. Frei

And then I ran into a wall of the pesky humans. I was like, holy cow. I can’t optimise anymore because of the pesky humans. And then I got really intrigued by the humans. And then I realised that they weren’t LED. And that just opened up everything. And so this is a book that Anne and I, my wife and I wrote, is our second book together. And it’s about what we see are mostly the intuitive practices that unleash the potential of other human beings

Garry Turner  1:54  

Now may I ask, where does your wife work, is she also at Harvard or she somewhere else, Frances?

Frances Frei  1:59  

She’s the executive founder of an organisation called the Leadership Consortium, which is set up, she’s a serial entrepreneur, this is her most recent one. And it’s organised so that women and people of colour can accelerate to their true potential. Whereas in some cases, they’re artificially held back. I don’t want to say that held back, but stuff gets in their way that shouldn’t. So the organisation helps sweep those things out of the way. And it’s had just tremendous success.

Garry Turner  2:28  

Lovely. I’m really, really thankful for giving that a shout out. I remember reading about her work in the book. And I just think, not only for our times anyway, it’s important but particularly with the volume being where it is right now. I think it’s great work. She’s doing today. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, as we get going, before we dive into the book, I just want to share one of the statements you made in the book because it just really summed up for me, my journey into vulnerability and into myself realising that I’m also a human and not a robot, Frances, believe it or not, on page 14 of the book, you share this, this kind of this and I hope you enjoy this listen as as much as I did, it is electrifying to be seen not only as we are rare enough as it is in its own right, but also as the people, we might become just such a stunning statement. I just love to know what, what does that mean to you when you like right now in the moment?

‘It’s a leader’s job to set the conditions for the best version of us to show up. Taking that a step further. Why limit it? Be the best version of who would like if we can do it of the person we’re likely to become if we interact with that person.’

Frances X. Frei

Frances Frei  3:17  

Yeah. So, you know, one of the ways that we have learned how to accelerate people’s performance is to treat them like the best version of themselves. So sometimes, like not the best version of ourselves presents, and we might like want to pour liquid cement on that interaction. We don’t believe in it. We believe we have many facets. It’s a leader’s job to set the conditions for the best version of us to show up. Taking that a step further. Why limit it by the best version of who would like if we can do it of the person we’re likely to become if we interact with that person. We find you get there much quicker.

Garry Turner  3:53  

I want to hear from Mike. Looking thoughtful.

Mike Vacanti  3:57  

Yeah, I mean, Garry, you know how much this aligns to you know,  what Ilive, what I, what I teach and what we explore and like a lot of things we do together and so it really lands well, but also I know that’s the truth, right? I mean, one of the things I often say is that it’s much more than what we accomplished, it’s who we become along the journey. And, and so, you know, you have a great upcoming statement there and, and when we’re allowing people to become what they’re going to become, then they’re propelling forward and then you get that bravery and the risk and, and all of the other things that we recoil from and, and take as barriers, right. 

And so, we ended up not getting the leaders we need, and we don’t get the diversity of the leaders we need because we don’t allow those unique things to come through. And I just love how you’re gracefully pushing through those barriers, or at least exposing what we can imagine, to take place. Yeah. and empowering people to get there. Yeah.

And so, in that, what is the response from, say, some of the traditional colleagues or contributors around the environments that you experience?

TRUST FREI TRIANGLE

Frances Frei  5:29  

So we have found the response. And I think it has to do with the fact that we’re writing the book now, like it came out on June 2. And so I have a very specific moment. And so the response has been overwhelmingly positive. And of the nature of, oh my gosh, we really need this. So I have had groups of colleagues get together and read the book that I didn’t happen the last time I wrote the book, and I’ve had a lot of academic institutions call and many more people calling to want a guided tour of the book, particularly chapters four and six, which are the belonging and culture, chapters, but and so that’s just never happened before.

I think the words like you just Garry pulled out one sentence and as you set it out, I loved it too. I mean, it was a great sentence. And that’s with Anne and I writing and Anne is a beautiful writer. And I’m a pretty good observer and practitioner. And so I can come in and edit but we try, we wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it so that we would have as many beautiful sentences as possible, make it as short as possible, but also provide all of the secret memos that we feel like we have accumulated on way

Mike Vacanti  6:48  

So rich and we know that that’s what people like to adopt, right? I mean, there’s formulas right if we, we read forums, we read HBR, we read, write and it’s all kind of the same. But you know, one paragraph statement of the problem, four bullet points and then a conclusion and that’s what people will consume. And so I think sometimes when you have that richness of thought and opportunity and exploration that you’re providing here, it doesn’t always fit nicely into that, you know, Hey, will you please give me the four bullet points on belonging? Because that’s really what we want. And yeah, it’s like, well, it has to those grapes grow in the vineyard, you have to take the vineyard, you can’t just have the end of it. Yeah.

Frances Frei  7:34  

And, you know, the Harvard Business Review is the press that wrote the book, and they were so kind and generous in both giving us direction but also permitting us to go wherever the work needed us to go. And so I do feel like you can read a lot of the book in one sitting. The number of people that have told me that they’re on their third reading of it, although or they’ll read it and listen to it on tape. And that’s great. It’s narrated by an amazing woman. But that is, and I myself, since it has come out, I returned to it all the time, because it’s, it’s not just the knowledge. It’s also like getting myself in the right position like, yeah, I want to set the conditions to not condemn people by their worst behaviour, but to interact with their best behaviour, and then the other, you know, hundred statements like that.

Mike Vacanti  7:34  

You know, I love that. It’s amazing how much we, you know, explore systems that we measure people against their ability to be the same, right? So, the measures in business are often our sameness and our levels of achieving against that sameness, rather than achieving along with our uniqueness. And so it’s more about how do we fit rather than what do we contribute? Yeah, like you’re breaking some of those paradigms. 

‘teams that celebrate that uniqueness and set the conditions for the uniqueness will thump the sameness. So… it has a beautiful moral imperative for me, but I’m also ridiculously competitive. And it’s got a beautiful competitive performance imperative to it.’

Frances X. Frei

Frances Frei  8:56  

For sure. And you know, for performance reasons. Like teams that celebrate that uniqueness and set the conditions for the uniqueness will thump the sameness. So it has a beautiful moral imperative for me, but I’m also ridiculously competitive. And it’s got a beautiful competitive performance imperative to it.

Mike Vacanti  9:21  

Striking, very striking, and so important and timely I do know that you know, like the path we’re on currently isn’t, you know, sustainable nor necessarily desirable and so I love that you’re bringing such a great voice to a shift in that paradigm. Yeah.

Garry Turner  9:43  

I’d love to ask actually, Frances, as well because I love your energy, you can feel for those that are listening, like all of Frances energy just went up a notch. She shared that word condition, so she’s not joking. She really does love being competitive. But there’s something about healthy competition versus unreal See, I feel I wonder if you would challenge or build on that from your world?

Frances Frei BL

Frances Frei  10:04  

Sure. So I mean, listen, I like a level playing field I. And so that and competition makes us better, like when I work out and you work out talking about a former me. I played college basketball back when you didn’t have to be good to play basketball. But like competition made us better. It was the striving. And it was a fair playing field. That kind of competition is magnificent. Frankly, it’s why we’re a nation of immigrants. It’s like what it just raises the bar on everyone. It’s beautiful. A part of competition that isn’t good is when you get to like, you know, go make a relationship with the referee and rigged the rules. And so I think competition is a beautiful thing. 

Now, what we need to do is that that’s for people who can compete. There are swaths of people that haven’t been given the running shoes, haven’t been given this and they met so that they can’t even participate, we’ve got to take care of them differently. But for those who can compete, I don’t want them to not compete, I want them to also get to. And so one of the things that made me crazy when I was at Uber, in I went there in June of 2017, for a while to help fix some of the problems there. And I would look around Silicon Valley, and I was like, so there’s two ways to compete. One is to be better than everyone else, better and faster, love it. The other is to lobby for special rules. My heart just is not in that at all. Not at all.

Mike Vacanti  11:39  

I love the definition of competition. And I love those experiences you bring in because it is invigorating. When it is. I mean, competition takes more than one person. Right and that and that’s a wonderful thing, because there’s innate teaming in there and you may be a lot Like me often, Frances I, when we hear people talk about teaming, and it, and they talk about it in a sense of orchestrating a collaboration string. It’s like, that’s, that’s not to me, that would be a collaboration flow that, you know, it’s a very different thing. And, and so you bring in that rich experience with the definition of healthy and unhealthy was brilliant. Yeah. And what, what, what really struck me is those that don’t have the shoes that aren’t quite in the game yet. And the responsibility to get out to the margins, and create that opportunity. I would love to hear more about watching visions on that.

‘I am not a pull yourself up by the bootstraps for everyone philosophy because first of all, it’s not possible like just physics. It’s just hard for me to be a proponent of something that’s not possible. And second, when those of us that are feeling comfortable, it’s our job to open our arms for everyone else.’

Frances X. Frei

Frances Frei  12:45  

Yeah, well, I am not a pull yourself up by the bootstraps for everyone philosophy because first of all, it’s not possible like just physics. It’s just hard for me to be a proponent of something that’s not possible. And second, when those of us that are feeling comfortable, it’s our job to open our arms for everyone else. And in any aspect of our lives, for those of us that are feeling comfortable, we should open our arms to everyone else. And I promise you, the people that don’t have shoes, they’re not going to need shoes forever. Like, we’re only going to have to help them for a little while. And then they’re going to make us better, like super quick. 

So I scarcely think we can afford to only have a subset of the people on the track right now, if I just keep using this. I think the world’s challenges are so vast, we need the great efforts of everyone and so if that means that we’re going to go and, and supply equipment and give some training and teach people running form and do all of those, we should do that, knowing that that’s the greatest investment we could be making in our country.

Garry Turner  13:55  

My spine is tingling. Frances, I’m serious. But there’s two, there’s two nuggets you’ve shared already that have the clarity of your message. Like is, it’s unbelievable, and I’d love to thank you for that. I’d love to take you on to your empowerment leadership model, because I think it’s really powerful. Would you mind just giving for the listeners that may not have read the book as yet? Just give us a walk through what that model is? And why does it matter so much to you?

Frances Frei  14:22  

Yeah, so the first ring of empowerment is that it’s not about you. So my job if I and we start the book with a quote by Toni Morrison that the shorthand version of it is, when I get that power I so richly deserved. The first thing I need to do is go and empower someone else. So we take the entire first chapter to explain to leaders it’s not about you, because it takes that while to I like to unlearn some of the other things. So ring one, it’s not about you. Ring two. We need a foundation of trust to accelerate and raise the bar on everything else that can happen.

If I and it’s my job, Garry to earn your trust, if you don’t trust me, I have to fix it. If I don’t trust you, you have to fix it. So if, from my perspective, it’s not about me, I have to learn how to build and rebuild trust. And then I have to learn how to set one person up for success at a time. We call that love, because we actually think it’s the greatest form of love to set the conditions for one person to thrive. 

And then it goes to belonging, which is who now we want to set more and more varied people up to thrive at one time. And that’s where the notion of teams comes in. And you can do that at the company level, you can do that at the business unit level. And that all takes care that happens in our presence. And our thought is that leadership is about making others better as a result of our presence. But do it in a way that lasts in our absence. Little did we know we were going to be in a remote world when we wrote this.

We were coming thinking like, absence might be after you moved on, no, absence is like every single day. So it’s but the last two rings are the only thing that guide my behaviour when you’re not around to show me what to do, or my understanding of the strategy and the culture. Those are the two things we have. 

‘for your company and beyond, is culture and here, the thing about culture, not only everywhere where strategy is silent, culture tells us what to do. But think about all the people that interact with the stress with the culture of our organisation. Everyone in the company, every customer, every stakeholder, every investor, we reach so many more people with culture than we do with everyone else. And that’s the last dream of empowerment leadership.’

Frances X. Frei

So we saw this, the next ring is strategy. And you think well what a strategy doing in a that might be as odd as love and belonging, except for strategy is so needed because it really guides our discretionary behaviour and we’re making 100, 200 decisions every day. And we’re not telling people how to set strategy. We’re telling people how to communicate strategy with a common voice, it will help people find inconsistencies in their strategy. So it’s, it’s more like it will help tune it up but then communicated throughout the organisation.

And then the last thing, which is for your company and beyond, is culture and here, the thing about culture, not only everywhere where strategy is silent, culture tells us what to do. But think about all the people that interact with the stress with the culture of our organisation. Everyone in the company, every customer, every stakeholder, every investor, we reach so many more people with culture than we do with everyone else. And that’s the last dream of empowerment leadership.

Garry Turner  17:24  

I’d love to pop back if I may, to your comment about strategy, actually, Frances. Yes. What you spoke to, for me, is clarity of communication piece, unless you speak, because I think that’s quite often missed in businesses. If you can get that strategy, transparently understood by everybody, the amount of friction that can reduce, but I don’t think we have time there.

Frances Frei  17:48  

Well, the thing I think that the world has separated to superduper specialists in strategy in the world has gotten complicated and strategy has gotten complicated and I think that’s great. But then the strategists started talking to other strategists, and the team of 10 would talk to each other. And they do it in a code, a shorthand that was impenetrable to everyone else. So they understood the strategy. Or maybe they’d have a firm come in and help them understand the strategy. And it would be cut in their mind or maybe in a binder on a shelf, but very few people understood all the nooks and crannies of it, that is wasted. And for sure, we’re going to be acting against the best wishes of the strategy all day every day. So I’d like your friction points, locked in the minds of a few, strategy is not going to be effective, full stop.

unleashed

Mike Vacanti  18:39  

We talk about the complexity. Yes, business is complicated, but it’s just business, right? Like we know how business works. It’s not really that complicated. But all those 10 strategists in the room, man, can they make it complicated, and so like, we build our own complication.

Frances Frei  19:00  

In fairness to the 10, let’s say that they are 10 noble strategists, and they’re just matching the level of complexity. And they’re talking in shorthand to one another. And they’re great strategists. They don’t they haven’t always thought the limitation of their strategy is how effectively it’s understood by the frontline worker. And in my observation, it certainly is.

Mike Vacanti  19:21  

So you know, it’s almost like you know, still 70% of ERP implementation, implementing software into a company, fail, 65% of custom software development fail, 84% of digital transformation projects fail. A trillion dollars is spent on that every year.

Frances Frei  19:43  

 It breaks my operations heart.

Mike Vacanti  19:45  

So those 10 in, in theory, because we’re not actually talking about 10 people, so I’m not offending anybody. I’m just saying from a model standpoint, those 10 people floating around on innertubes in a think tank are never going to implement what’s going to happen. Because they’re not following the threads that you so clearly, I think eloquently laid for us is the strategy that lives within each of those in the implementation chain. And the culture being the thing that takes shape, and has guidance when strategy is not at play, and I think of that throughout an ecosystem. And I think all of those 10 floaties in the think tank, or maybe the problem, not the solution. 

Frances Frei  20:45  

I adore the 10 and I think the 10 are awesome, so I’m not going to submit that the 10 are the problem. I think the 10 are awesome, I think they’re needed. I think we also need to translate it to the rest of the organisation and there are certainly some organisations, I mean, Southwest Airlines, every single person in the company understands their, their strategy top to bottom, culture is where everyone is, we’re silent. But everybody understands it, like you can go interview anyone on it. And it was 10 people that decided it, but they managed so I’m not going to, I think that the 10 are really important. I’m just gonna broaden their remit.

Garry Turner  21:25  

It’s a fair challenge. I love the fact that you’re both having a debate about it because I think this in and of itself is a great role model to what we don’t have enough, Frances, for me is the ability to hold two opposing or different views not necessarily opposing, but how can we evaluate two different things? But isn’t it? I’m not sure that’s a skill that we teach.

Frances Frei  21:51  

And I think you know, it depends where, like because we teach in classrooms, we certainly teach it in classrooms. We certainly teach in classrooms around the world. You’ll be sitting startled by the primary school education classroom, we are teaching it in classrooms. We might not be teaching it at all, at all dining room tables, but we are certainly teaching it in schools.

Garry Turner  22:14  

Great challenge back. Appreciate that. I’ve not been there in a while, although my mind sometimes takes you there, Frances, to be completely honest. What I love to ask is, what are one or two things that have surprised you the most through the journey of researching and writing the book?

Frances Frei  22:34  

That’s such a great question. You know, at the end of the book, when we had finished the research, and we had written, we wrote about all the companies that we had studied, and we hadn’t studied Microsoft much along the way if I hadn’t studied Microsoft at all, and then we like ran into Microsoft at the end. And we really, wait a minute. It’s not about you. Love, belonging, strategy, culture and it gets to the greatest turnaround in my lifetime without my even noticing it over the last five years. So I think that was the thing that was just like, wait a minute, who is this guy Satya? And holy cow, Kathleen and Amy, like I just was. So I think that was one of the biggest surprises. You know, one of the three largest companies in the world was hiding in plain sight. And he’s like, the most beautiful illustrative example of what we came up with.

Garry Turner  23:35  

So what was it that actually surprised you that you weren’t aware? Was this a key surprise for you? Or was it other things?

Frances Frei  23:42  

They were in what was it like, each step of the way? I mean, they even have so Kathleen Hogan led the turnaround, the aspects of the turnaround, their performance management system, and they even have things in their performance management system that say things like, how much did you help other people? I mean, it was like, it was they really came. So Mike said in the beginning, like, what I was saying really, really rang true to him. When I saw the examples of Microsoft. I was like, Oh my gosh, this rings so true. And I’m not sure I saw any other company that so perfectly fit the model.

Mike Vacanti  24:18  

Yeah, their organisational health indicators run right along with their KPIs. Right. So it’s, and they and that’s part of how you interact. It’s part of how I’ve done a lot of work with them over the years and I’ve done a lot of work through that transition actually, with their people.

Frances Frei  24:36  

Well well done. And it also answers the question, like, you know, is this Can this be done? Well, yes. Because just go knock on Microsoft Store.

Mike Vacanti  24:47  

And what I love is when you call that transformation truly because it when we look at the state that they were in previously with you know, following a bad acquisition and and really a climb over and conquer culture right it’s yes yeah I win when you fail, kind of thing even in their business units to go to where Satya took it as is

Frances Frei  25:20  

It makes the case for how they get higher when you help one another when you if each one of us is empowering everyone else we will thump you. I mean that’s the part I just love about it.

Mike Vacanti  25:35  

And it’s really interesting because Kathleen Hogan when Satya put her in place or asked her to to step into that role.

Frances Frei  25:43  

He was lucky enough for her to say yes.

Mike Vacanti  25:45  

She came from the business side right and didn’t come from traditional HR  and though it has that it has alignment. It’s a beautiful story.

Frances Frei  25:56  

It’s a beautiful story. So that’s I think our biggest surprise, yeah.

Garry Turner  26:02  

What’s next on the horizon? For you, Frances with this work, appreciate your sort of situ situated in place at the moment, unfortunately for a period of time. You know, what’s what what are you thinking about right now that maybe you haven’t told somebody else on another podcast? What’s on your mind right now?

‘I would like the next wave is to remove race and gender as explanatory variables for performance, which means how we hire, develop, promote and retain and I’m that’s what I want to dedicate my life to.’

Frances X. Frei

Frances Frei  26:17  

Yeah, so we’re really…I don’t like race and gender being explanatory variables for performance or for sentiment. I just don’t like it. And my operations brain doesn’t think it should exist. And so I think that that comes in all levels, like companies are saying, Oh, I would hire great women, but I can’t find any no greater myth that exists than the myth of a pipeline. I would hire a black executive, but I can’t find any. So I would like the next wave is to remove race and gender as explanatory variables for performance, which means how we hire, develop, promote and retain and I’m that’s what I want to dedicate my life to. I don’t want my boys to enter the workforce. When those are two explanatory variables it doesn’t. It’s not just that no one else seems to want it either. So we just got to figure out the secret memos and then make them contagious. So that’s what I’d like to spend my next chapter on.

Garry Turner  27:21  

I thank you for sharing that. It’s so powerful Mike and I have actually aligned. We’ve sort of created what we call Hue-man Conversations to bring intentionally diverse people together to share experience, Frances, wonderful, and there’s been nothing more rewarding than realising how the world looks according to a different person who has a different story. And I think, is that part of the fun, potential fun is that we’ve got some very systemic challenges right now, storytelling, identity believe is a key aperture towards reducing that would you challenge that or build on that? What’s your thoughts around stories?

Frances Frei  27:53  

I mean, I think humanising so we are great when we are three dimensional versions. We are pretty lousy when we make a two dimensional caricature of the other person and storytelling makes it super hard to make a two dimensional caricature

Mike Vacanti  28:11  

I want to go back to college? I definitely want to.

Garry Turner  28:16  

I’m thinking the same thing Mike.

Mike Vacanti  28:18  

So, you know, I just love all about that and with that intent, looking at the beautiful work that you’re doing and the thought leadership that you bring with that intent to step through those barriers. Others will come along that path, those barriers, and like we can walk right past that, when we acknowledge that it’s there. If we don’t acknowledge it’s there, we can’t walk past it. Yeah. And and I just I, you expressed that desire so calmly, but with such conviction and energy that it just drew me in.

Frances Frei  29:01  

Oh, I’m really pleased to hear that

Mike Vacanti  29:03  

I want to walk that path with you.

I want people to come along and walk that path with you. Let’s just do it. Yeah.

Garry Turner  29:15  

Just to get back to the book just briefly as we look to wrap up, Frances…

Frances Frei  29:18  

If you want to read another sentence, it’s like my favourite thing. We don’t do book readings anymore. So my second favourite thing is other people reading it.

Garry Turner  29:27  

That’s what our children were here for a while.

I might find you one of my other favourite quotes before then. To share with us all you’ve got this some devotions standards devotions matrix? Yes. And I thought that was a really interesting lens to be able to see how you’re viewing the world and how you view others. Would you mind just speaking about that for our friends? Yeah.

Frances Frei  29:51  

‘The challenge is, we trade those off so that when I’m setting high standards, I forget to reveal that I’m deeply devoted to your success. And when I’m revealing my deep devotion to your success, I insidiously lower the standards. And so what we’re trying to do is first acknowledge it…Where are you on that two by two, and what’s the journey towards high standards and deep devotion. ‘

Frances X. Frei

So when we’re trying to bring out the best in one person, we have learned that it requires two things. If we’re not careful in our minds, they trade off against each other, but in reality they needn’t. And those two things are the first one won’t surprise anyone. If I want you to achieve as much as possible, I need to set high standards for you. Right? That’s it. Some people can thrive in the presence of low standards, but not many. So I need to set high standards. I can also say a separate statement. If I need you to succeed, I want you to feel my deep devotion to your success.

The challenge is, we trade those off so that when I’m setting high standards, I forget to reveal that I’m deeply devoted to your success. And when I’m revealing my deep devotion to your success, I insidiously lower the standards. And so what we’re trying to do is first acknowledge it, just like you’ve been saying, it’s important to see it first. Where are you on that two by two, and what’s the journey towards high standards and deep devotion. 

And we came across that when we were studying ancient Rome by just a wonderful sequence of events that involved Dean Emma Dench from Harvard University. There’s this guy, Valerius Maximus, and he wrote, what many consider the first leadership book. And it was, you know, about 2000 years ago. And the reason we considered his first leadership book is he wrote it for the well, not for the masses, but you wrote it for people that weren’t born into great families. They didn’t have the portraits on the walls going down the stairs. He wrote it to everyone else that could get a book.

So that was still limited, but he wrote it to everyone else. He talked about severity, fidelity, justice, and we adopt those words because I think it’s very hidden, put it in a two by two or anything like that. But it really echoes back from there, I think in a very powerful way. And so from the beginning of time, we have been teaching about these two things in conflict and we have found ways to do them at the same time.

Garry Turner  32:00  

Which I think brilliantly speaks to you, what I’ve read in the book. It is about the whole person. Like it’s really it’s time to stop. I think job descriptions. Don’t start me on that one today. But what you know what value does that bring? Apart from completely dehumanising a human being into? Yeah, a two by two D version as you say again? Yeah.

Frances Frei  32:20  

Yeah.

Garry Turner  32:22  

Mike, what’s on your mind only got a few minutes left with this wonderful human?

Mike Vacanti  32:27  

You know, just exploring possibilities and and I think that’s what really resonates well with what you’re teaching and sharing and, and have expressed in the book. You’re looking at the possibilities, and you’re boldly stepping toward that with belief. And you’re sharing it in a way you know, in a manner that brings through the historic view and brings through the realities and programmes that others can adopt and move on. And in those, all those elements together, it’s just really brilliant. And thank you for head up, eyes forward. Thank you for stepping into the competition of creating that positive change. I’m inspired.

Frances Frei  33:17  

Well, thank you right back at you for the I mean, who has a podcast with the mission that you do other than you? It’s like a human centred, unapologetically human centred. I’m, I’m just thrilled to be a part of it. 

Garry Turner  33:32  

Well, thank you so much for joining us, Frances and I, I’m gonna read another quote just for your Oh, I’m gonna let you off to sleep now. Okay, hopefully not for your listeners. Thank you for joining us. But, yeah, absolutely. So topical. I’m, you know, as a white male on the call like Mike, you know, we’re all three of us so passionate about an inclusive world going forward. And I just think you summarised something beautifully in here around inclusive teams, which is when we choose to bring our unique selves to the table, the parts ourselves, but are actually different from other people, then diversity can create an unbeatable advantage by expanding the amount of information the team can access.

Frances Frei  34:12  

AKA, thump.

Garry Turner  34:16  

in a healthy, competitive way.

How can people find you, Frances, you’ve been an absolute joy.

Frances Frei  34:24  

LinkedIn is the best way to do it. Frances Frei.

Mike Vacanti  34:28  

I’ll race all of you. I just want to throw out that competitiveness.

Frances Frei  34:35  

It’s so good. You know what, the first five that connect with me on LinkedIn and mentioned this podcast? And include your address. I’ll mail you a signed copy of the book. 

Garry Turner  34:48  

Yes. Love it. Thank you so much, Frances, very generous. Mike’s got all five copies anyway. Right. Thank you, Frances. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for joining us. Take care.

Please Note: The content above is a semi-automated transcription of the podcast episode. We recommend listening to the podcast, in case any of the content above is unclear.

Garry Turner

With over 20 years of international sales, business development and relationship-building experience combined with a deep understanding of people, team and culture dynamics, Garry Turner serves individuals, teams and leaders as a strategic advisor and interpersonal catalyst.

Mike Vacanti

Mike’s mission is simply to help as many people as he can discover their potential, embrace a growth mindset and achieve at inspired levels individually, as a brilliant team and for the betterment of their company and community.

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